Benji wrote: Leinster Ulster final 14/1
I'd love an all Irish final as we wouldnt have to go the wait.
I just think that Ulster with its saffies rested will have enough for Munster.

Didn't want to tempt fate, but I'd agree. They need to avoid injuries to their talismans though so Besty/Ferris and Pienaar need to stay healthy. Afoa/Mueller and Wannanberg have been pretty influential too.

In the backs Cave needs to be fit too as he add a lot to the penetration of their backs, he was hugely influential in the win against Leicester and injury apart would have been a shoe-in for the Wolfhounds...

Leinster Ulster final 14/1
I'd love an all Irish final as we wouldnt have to go the wait.
I just think that Ulster with its saffies rested will have enough for Munster.

mary hinge wrote: I can see Munster, Toulouse, Saracens and Leinster winning the quarters, with Toulouse and Leinster coming through the semis and Leinster winning out in the end.

Possibly Mary, myself I think it'll be Munster-Edinburgh in Lansdowne Rd (don't think they'll get away with Thomond for a Semi capcity wise). Toulouse are not the great team of old and other sides have rebuilt and strenghtened, Edinburgh will have taken a huge amount of confidence from the way they disposed of Irish and topped their group, and also the fact they got a record crowd for the game. Not sure they'll fill Murrayfield, but if they get 30-40,000 in it could give them the edge there. If they play as well as they did Sunday they have every chance.

Clermont-Leinster in Lyon for the other side of the draw, just think that CA will have that little bit too much for Sarries, and can't see barring a major collapse Cardiff getting remotely near Leinstet who've caned near full Cardiff sides already this season...

Fas as I know Tonetti, Duffy and McSharry all played flyhalf at schools or underage level. Tonetti played at least once for Leinster at 10. As another example, Carr was Blackrock's kicker (and very good he was too) before he came to us.

I think any young player who arrives with a placekicking background should continue with this regardless of position, and whomever is the best kicker on the field at the time kicks. You don't want to be picking a dud at 10, or 15, or whereever, just because you need a kicker on the pitch, you want it to be that whatever permutation of players you pick there are at least 2 reliable kickers out there - look at Leinster for instance.

Totally agree salmson.
We have a great backline mover in Jarvis.
Why not get somebody else for the kicking duties??
Did Tonnetti not play 10 a few times??

sea_point wrote:
If you're suggesting that an International Union outhalf's priority is kicking rather than running (I presume you were alluding to this in your Union - League comment) then I'll remind you that they greatest flyhalfs in World Rugby were recognised not for their consitency with the boot but their ability with ball in hand.

I'd go even further - why does the flyhalf necessarily need to kick (for goal) at all? Look at McFadden, Nacewa, Halfpenny, James O'Connor - and John Eales for God's sakes.

rossie wrote: seapoint, its clear that we have a different view of rogs talents.

However points win games and rog delivers them time and time again. Missed Kicks(particularly important ones) will not be toleratd at Munster for long so Rog doesnt demand to play, the team demands that he plays because he delivers.

Its all about winning in Munsters mindset and thats why they usually do. I for one am a big fan of that mindset and admire him immensly for his ability to deliver for his team(be it green or red) under pressure.
Thats why the crowd in the aviva get nervous in tight games and start calling for him to come on. Jonny knows this too and it sometimes affects his performance.
This is what legend status does to your rivals.
He has had an incredible career and continues to do so. He owes the game or irish rugby nothing at this stage and we owe him a lot for everything that has been achieved.
It is inevitable in Ireland that excelling in your role will achieve as many detractors as followers but thats life and we all have our opinion.

However if you like your rugby more union than league you have to appreciate what he brings to the table.
Jonny imo opinion will be a top 10 in international rugby(prob even better than rog) and thats sport. For the moment tho he still can learn from rog just as rog did from humphries.Keatley also has this opportunity, hopefully he will take it.

Incidently i dont think any connacht fan wud complain( and most would rejoice)if rog finished his career here.Wishful thinkng i kno.

Jaysus laying on a bit thick aren't you , you've clearly forgotten how vunerable RO'G has been as a kicker in the past particularly in his early days against any sort of decent opposition which is why the ROG-Humpty debate lasted so long (up until Humpty's retirement really). Do you remember NZ in Dunedin in 2002, he singlehandedly blew that game. The Irish pack were brilliant in the first test but he had an absolute shocker and missed some very straighforward kicks, and naturally having blown the chance to take them while they were cold we were beaten out the gate in the next test. That isn't an isolated game either by any stretch in Red or Green, but in fairness he has had some moments in the sun too. The drop goal in Cardiff being one, two HEC's.

But ROG grew up in rugby terms in an armchair at 10 in PBC, Con & Munster under Deccie and that was the catalyst for him into the Ireland setup. There were plenty of games in Green where he had absolute shockers with the boot, but they were back in the day where we were hockeying the likes of Wales & Scotland out the gate with tries.

If you're suggesting that an International Union outhalf's priority is kicking rather than running (I presume you were alluding to this in your Union - League comment) then I'll remind you that they greatest flyhalfs in World Rugby were recognised not for their consitency with the boot but their ability with ball in hand. Klye, Bennett, John, Morgan, Davies, Lynagh, Porta etc.. Yes they could all kick, but what put them above your commoner garden 10 was the ability to dominate teams with the ball in hand.

Sexton is a Top International Rugby flyhalf already, his kicking stats at this stage are up there with ROG's at the same stage comfortably and he's miles ahead in terms of distribution, attacking/playing the gainline and gazillion lightyears ahead in terms of defence. The best we have ever hoped for ROG defensively is that he managed to hang on in a tackle until someone else got there or if he was being speedbumbed that the carrier would trip over him. To pretend anything else is just nonsense. When RO'G does retire we may see Sexton show his best form, but personally I think it won't be until Kidney is gone form the Ireland job.

If ROG is as good as some suggest he is, then there would have been no debate about Him/Humpty or Him/Sexton, there has and always will be question marks about ROG's game at the highest level and they have prevented him from gaining the Lions Test jersey from a VERY modest 10 in Stephen Jones in SA. You do realise that in his three Lions tours RO'G has only played in two tests (as a replacement), and scored no points at all....

RO'G may have broken all sorts of records in an Ireland jersey, but he's nowhere near the best outhalf we've ever produced, hell he's not even the best Munster has produced IMO. He was lucky that he was born around the same time as two generations of a hugely competitve Munster pack. His longevity and our relience on him in Green is really an indcitment of the lack of options available and the conservatism of Irish coaches to bring through other flyhalves earlier. From a Munster perspective they have had him for over fourteen seasons and have yet to unearth a suitable potential replacement from within the province, which is why Keats is there...

For several issues I don't much rate him as a person, I can respect what he has achieved on a rugby pitch though.

I can see Munster, Toulouse, Saracens and Leinster winning the quarters, with Toulouse and Leinster coming through the semis and Leinster winning out in the end.

ummm, wrote: Aye, it'd be nice if there was an All-Ireland final this year, that way we could get our HEC season recruitment going early!

Was thinking the same thing, but Leinster will have their work cut out for them with an away semifinal against either Clermont or Saracens should they, in all likelihood, get by Cardiff. The winner of Munster v. Ulster will probably get Toulouse, but at least it will be at home. Cautiously optimistic there will be Irish representation in the final, though an All-Ireland final would certainly be a dream come true.

seapoint, its clear that we have a different view of rogs talents.

However points win games and rog delivers them time and time again. Missed Kicks(particularly important ones) will not be toleratd at Munster for long so Rog doesnt demand to play, the team demands that he plays because he delivers.

Its all about winning in Munsters mindset and thats why they usually do. I for one am a big fan of that mindset and admire him immensly for his ability to deliver for his team(be it green or red) under pressure.
Thats why the crowd in the aviva get nervous in tight games and start calling for him to come on. Jonny knows this too and it sometimes affects his performance.
This is what legend status does to your rivals.
He has had an incredible career and continues to do so. He owes the game or irish rugby nothing at this stage and we owe him a lot for everything that has been achieved.
It is inevitable in Ireland that excelling in your role will achieve as many detractors as followers but thats life and we all have our opinion.

However if you like your rugby more union than league you have to appreciate what he brings to the table.
Jonny imo opinion will be a top 10 in international rugby(prob even better than rog) and thats sport. For the moment tho he still can learn from rog just as rog did from humphries.Keatley also has this opportunity, hopefully he will take it.

Incidently i dont think any connacht fan wud complain( and most would rejoice)if rog finished his career here.Wishful thinkng i kno.

some very good pictures here from the game.

www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=28961751...31&type=1&permPage=1

Aye, it'd be nice if there was an All-Ireland final this year, that way we could get our HEC season recruitment going early!

rossie wrote: keatley is still a poor kicker and wont do post rog if he doesnt improve dramatically. Admittedly he wil (prob) be replacing a living legend of the game but missed kicks wont be tolerated at munster.

Outside of kicking, Keatley has way more to every other area of his game than ROG. Once Munster find the balls to push ROG into the backup role and give youth it's head Keats will grow into the role.

As is, he pretty much now he can have a blinder or a stinker but once ROG is available he will insist on his place back and get it straight away. It's been his way with Munster & Ireland since he first wore long trousers...

Another season here would not have done Keats any harm at all, but he wasn't to know Leinster were going to gift wrap a place for us in the HEC...

NOC while he had a good game isn't going to improve hugely in his mid-20's he is what he is while I admit his kicking percent might go up as he gets more used to the SG he's a player like Buckley all potential and little product.

keatley is still a poor kicker and wont do post rog if he doesnt improve dramatically. Admittedly he wil (prob) be replacing a living legend of the game but missed kicks wont be tolerated at munster.

The thing about NOC is that he appears to do very little wrong in his set up/process but the results speak for themselves and just arent consistant enuf which implies to me that he lacks a bit of bottle.

As if to back this up his kicking from the hand in the first half with the wind was too safe imo and gave the reciever too many options. THe chase was also poor in this half which didnt help and allowed them keep the balll far too easily. Line was at least 10/15m bhind where it needed to be which gave them suppoert at ruck time.

I wud prefer to see him place the kicks neearer the tram lines to limit the options of the recievers. he prob playing safe atm becasuse of confidence.. The line speed (which has been an ongoing prob throughout season )needs to improve consistancy also. Tuohy has been a loss in this area.

Obviously in 2nd half none of these were issues!

eastcoastconnacht wrote: Interesting point about the tries conceded. Though NOC dont alright on friday night. Got some good touch finders in difficult conditions and in fairness the three kicks he go could easily have been missed in the past. I know its hard to watch at times but I think with a bit of confidence and time he can improve alot, there certainly is room there to improve. Keatley was no points machine when he came west first but was a much better kicker when he left.

After he simplified his run-up ( I still miss the 6 dips though... )...