pinky wrote:

Borders no.2 wrote:
Interesting but going by what you are saying above that would also likely push us into the 4th seeds so a mixed blessing. Wasps probably look favourites for 6th spot but they may need a result away to Sale who have started to get their act together.

I think we should be ok via Leinster.

Yes ideally, Wasps go out and Leinster win and Plan A scores a hat-trick.
Always nervous about a Biarritz team with nothing else to play for though.

Remember also that Biarritz are defending Amlin Cup Champion, this might count for something.

Borders no.2 wrote:
Interesting but going by what you are saying above that would also likely push us into the 4th seeds so a mixed blessing. Wasps probably look favourites for 6th spot but they may need a result away to Sale who have started to get their act together.

I think we should be ok via Leinster.

Yes ideally, Wasps go out and Leinster win and Plan A scores a hat-trick.
Always nervous about a Biarritz team with nothing else to play for though.

Fourdogs wrote: Can you imagine the flap the FRU or RFU would get into if 8 of their teams qualify (6 plus 2 winners) and only 7 are actually allowed compete in the competition next year?

The entire current HC setup would then definitely be scrapped. This could even threaten the 2014 competition from ever happening.

Ah yes, I can see the headline in l'Equipe:

Perpignan a éliminé par "Pinky's Law"

I think whatever happens with the next ERC accord, the current ranking system is sure to be binned. The rule above sounds like it was agreed on the way to the airport.

pinky wrote: I'd almost forgotten about this old rule:

<strong>However, England and France, who have six automatic places, will only be allowed a maximum of seven teams, so if either country wins both the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup the second additional spot will pass on to the club with the highest ERC European Ranking who has not already qualified from any of the other five nations.</strong>

So even if Leinster or Munster don't do the business for us, then as long as Sarries don't win the H Cup, the last place will go to the highest ranked non-French team that's not already qualified.

At present that would be Wasps, but if they get into the top 6 in the Premiership (i.e. beat Exeter next weekend), the next highest would be Connacht.

Always handy to know there's a doggie flap in the back door.

Pinky

Fair play, that took a bit of working out.

Can you imagine the flap the FRU or RFU would get into if 8 of their teams qualify (6 plus 2 winners) and only 7 are actually allowed compete in the competition next year?

The entire current HC setup would then definitely be scrapped. This could even threaten the 2014 competition from ever happening.

pinky wrote: I'd almost forgotten about this old rule:

<strong>However, England and France, who have six automatic places, will only be allowed a maximum of seven teams, so if either country wins both the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup the second additional spot will pass on to the club with the highest ERC European Ranking who has not already qualified from any of the other five nations.</strong>

So even if Leinster or Munster don't do the business for us, then as long as Sarries don't win the H Cup, the last place will go to the highest ranked non-French team that's not already qualified.

At present that would be Wasps, but if they get into the top 6 in the Premiership (i.e. beat Exeter next weekend), the next highest would be Connacht.

Always handy to know there's a doggie flap in the back door.

Interesting but going by what you are saying above that would also likely push us into the 4th seeds so a mixed blessing. Wasps probably look favourites for 6th spot but they may need a result away to Sale who have started to get their act together.

I think we should be ok via Leinster.

I'd almost forgotten about this old rule:

However, England and France, who have six automatic places, will only be allowed a maximum of seven teams, so if either country wins both the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup the second additional spot will pass on to the club with the highest ERC European Ranking who has not already qualified from any of the other five nations.

So even if Leinster or Munster don't do the business for us, then as long as Sarries don't win the H Cup, the last place will go to the highest ranked non-French team that's not already qualified.

At present that would be Wasps, but if they get into the top 6 in the Premiership (i.e. beat Exeter next weekend), the next highest would be Connacht.

Always handy to know there's a doggie flap in the back door.

I'd imagine we'll be losing those points picked up for the Challenge Cup run soon enough.

For me I've heard this off some people saying we might be better in the Challenge Cup.

I don't agree with that at all.

Reasons (amongst others):
Revenue (Season tickets, sponsorship etc.)
Prestige
Ranking Points (Very important when we do end up in the Amlin we want to be highly ranked and the only guaranteed points come from Heineken Cup)
Experience for Young Players
Recognition
Amlin can be tough to qualify for the Quarter Final

Fourdogs wrote:

salmson wrote: Am I right in thinking that at 21st in the rankings (and probably heading to 23rd) we'll drop from 3rd to 4th seeds in the HEC next year, should we qualify?

Salmson

You are fundamentally correct but it is complicated.

There are 24 HC positions, 6 English & French, 3 Irish and Welsh, 2 Scotish and Italian and the 2 compition winners.

If a club like Wasps for example, currently ranked 16 in the ERC rankings finishes outside the top 6 in the English Prem then they are excluded from the 24 HC slots and we would move up a notch. There are 4 teams currently ranked above us in the ERC who may not finish high enough in their own country to qualify so we could get a HC seeding of 19. This would indeed drop us to the 4th tier.

Basically we need 6 teams ranked below us to qualify if we want to hold out hope of getting Zebre again (and give them a chance to get the victory they've deserved so many times).

Guaranteed: Treviso, Zebre
More than likely: Racing, Castres, Gloucester
Bath, Wasps and Exeter fighting for the sixth spot in the Premiership.
If Wasps get it, we're fourth seeds, otherwise we're third.
Saracens winning the HEC would also bump us up.
Of course this is all predicated on Leinster winning the Challenge Cup

Not sure there's a huge difference in quality between pot 3 and 4 though. 3 will probably be something like Ospreys, Scarlets, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Montpellier

Anyway that's the chickens counted. Let's get hatching.

RogueXV wrote: IMO all things considered it's better for Connacht to be in the HEC. As has been noted the Amlin is now a tougher proposition and with no lucky losers if you don't top your pool you're done. And if you are not the #1 ranked pool winner you face a team dropping down from the HEC, albeit at home, or should you finish as the lowest ranked pool winner you play away to #1.

Being in the HEC greatly increased Connacht's season ticket numbers and they still have a decent chance of making the Amlin QF. Could have done it this year with one more win or even 4 bonus points.

I suppose will have a chance to see how a return to the Amlin plays out if Leinster can't save our HEC bacon for another season.

Oh I completely agree. I want us to be in the Heineken Cup every season forever and ever.

I would like to see how we'd get on in the Amlin Cup also, just to compare against years gone by

IMO all things considered it's better for Connacht to be in the HEC. As has been noted the Amlin is now a tougher proposition and with no lucky losers if you don't top your pool you're done. And if you are not the #1 ranked pool winner you face a team dropping down from the HEC, albeit at home, or should you finish as the lowest ranked pool winner you play away to #1.

Being in the HEC greatly increased Connacht's season ticket numbers and they still have a decent chance of making the Amlin QF. Could have done it this year with one more win or even 4 bonus points.

I suppose will have a chance to see how a return to the Amlin plays out if Leinster can't save our HEC bacon for another season.

Its the least Leinster could do after taking Macca away from us !! :whistle:

salmson wrote: Am I right in thinking that at 21st in the rankings (and probably heading to 23rd) we'll drop from 3rd to 4th seeds in the HEC next year, should we qualify?

Salmson

You are fundamentally correct but it is complicated.

There are 24 HC positions, 6 English & French, 3 Irish and Welsh, 2 Scotish and Italian and the 2 compition winners.

If a club like Wasps for example, currently ranked 16 in the ERC rankings finishes outside the top 6 in the English Prem then they are excluded from the 24 HC slots and we would move up a notch. There are 4 teams currently ranked above us in the ERC who may not finish high enough in their own country to qualify so we could get a HC seeding of 19. This would indeed drop us to the 4th tier.

salmson wrote: Am I right in thinking that at 21st in the rankings (and probably heading to 23rd) we'll drop from 3rd to 4th seeds in the HEC next year, should we qualify?

Not necessarily, not every team ahead of us in the rankings will make it into the HC. I imagine that would include a lot of French teams. We only need to rank 18th or higher within the teams that do make it in.

Fourdogs wrote: Gloucester, Bath & Toulouse are currently in qualifying positions for HC competation next year, Leinster will qualify from RABO, so we would not end up playing any of them in the Amlin (sugject to change of course)

Unless like this season where Toulouse, Leinster & BO they dropped down into the 1/4 finals after finishing Pool runners up in the group stages of the HEC ....

We would have a decent chance of qualifying from some of the groups depending on the mixes (avoiding two English sides would help), but the Knockout Stages have got considerably tougher with the changes...

Am I right in thinking that at 21st in the rankings (and probably heading to 23rd) we'll drop from 3rd to 4th seeds in the HEC next year, should we qualify?

Gloucester, Bath & Toulouse are currently in qualifying positions for HC competation next year, Leinster will qualify from RABO, so we would not end up playing any of them in the Amlin (sugject to change of course)